Curse

Div · Dec 14, 2007, 02:40 PM // 14:40

I'd like to also note I'm bad at TA, so don't listen to me

Aera · Dec 14, 2007, 02:47 PM // 14:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

I'd like to also note I'm bad at TA, so don't listen to me

Agreed. You PvE too much

Popo · Dec 14, 2007, 05:07 PM // 17:07

Quote:

i'm still sticking with ZB. people are forgetting how to prot properly; ever noticed how fast teams die at ANY given time when WoH is down? plus i really love the few extra seconds to power my prots more. besides, it leaves me with good leftover points for stances

There's only a one second difference for Guardian/SoA between the builds. And if the person is protting properly like you claim they should the prots will keep them up regardless of the 1 second difference.

Quote:

From playing ranger, it's a lot easier to fold a WoH monk than a ZB right now. WoH'ers tend to get spam happy, and they don't have gift as a fallback. Land a couple of d shots and it's usually time for a wipe. Not that disabling ZB is any less dangerous to a team, but it seems a lot of WoH monks have grown completely dependant on it. Playing ZB the goal was to try and minimize the need to even use it, rather than elite spamming. Anyway, a good monk will be careful, but a lot of bad ones are content to press woh every 3 seconds and watch red bars go up.

I don't know why you posted this because even you admit you can't compare a shitty spam happy WoH to a well played ZB. Personally, when my ZB gets interrupted I'm a lot more affected than if my WoH gets interrupted.

moko · Dec 14, 2007, 05:17 PM // 17:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Popo

There's only a one second difference for Guardian/SoA between the builds. And if the person is protting properly like you claim they should the prots will keep them up regardless of the 1 second difference.

with the attributes i'm using, there's a 2 second difference between guardian and soa, and a 5 damage shielding hands. that's a lot to me. yes, versus actually good teams the longer prots won't matter, but versus buttonmashing morons (former A/Mo, RaO way, Steady) that don't really targetswap cause they're dumb, the few more seconds are a really good help.

versus anything else, yes you're right.

Zuranthium · Dec 14, 2007, 05:50 PM // 17:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Natural

From playing ranger, it's a lot easier to fold a WoH monk than a ZB right now. WoH'ers tend to get spam happy, and they don't have gift as a fallback.

Most (good) ZB bars do not include gift.

I think we should all discuss GLIMMER OF LIGHT now. I only ever run that skill for fun because it's so pretty but I've seen a lot of success with it recently (47 wins with a Glimmer Monk out of RA and then 40-some wins with some random Asian guys in TA that used a Glimmer Monk).

I was particularly impressed by the second Glimmer bar because I was sure it would fail - it was entirely filled with 1/4 second casts (and a stance). Considering that 95% of all teams have Warmonger's Weapon or Magebane Shot, the Glimmer build is looking pretty hot.

~Z

Gigashadow · Dec 14, 2007, 06:39 PM // 18:39

I'm not a fan of ZB, it's a high risk high reward spell, and I prefer a more conservative playstyle that tries to reduce risk. If it gets interrupted, you have paid a much bigger price than if WoH was interrupted.

It does synergize very well with glyph of lesser energy, though, if your team setup lets you get away with being /E secondary.

TheHaxor · Dec 15, 2007, 09:53 AM // 09:53

ZB is more energy efficient, but it is less forgiving if you cancel or get interrupted. Running ZB allows you to run higher prot, making your prot skills slightly more effective (however, there really isn't a huge difference between running 11 prot and 14 prot). The 1 second recharge difference can also make a large difference over the course of the match... like against heavy hex degen or condition degen teams. WoH is better when the target doesn't meet the requirement for the bonus. I find that WoH is overall the better skill. They are pretty interchangeable, however.

Tyla · Dec 15, 2007, 03:46 PM // 15:46

i prefere ZB myself

*when* i monk, but i only monk in ab lol

moriz · Dec 15, 2007, 04:36 PM // 16:36

WoH is better than ZB in almost any instance now. the only time ZB is strictly better than WoH is when you cannot afford spreading into too many attribute lines.

Holz · Dec 16, 2007, 10:33 AM // 10:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mokone

i'm still sticking with ZB. people are forgetting how to prot properly; ever noticed how fast teams die at ANY given time when WoH is down? plus i really love the few extra seconds to power my prots more. besides, it leaves me with good leftover points for stances.

WoH is in most bars the only direct heal. The only things you have left are Spirit Bond / Protective Spirit, RoF and Dismiss for a small heal. If the opposing team has a lot of damage, and your WoH is down for a large time, you can't cast a 10 energy prot on all of your teammates (if one or two targets are taking damage it's still an expensive thing to do) and keep spamming RoF's to keep their health up... However, in TA, good teams are probably on vent and can decide to retreat, something that's (almost) impossible in RA

.
And on top of that, WoH heals for a larger amount of health. But yeah, 5 second guardians are kinda 'meh', it takes an immense amount of spamming. I might try ZB for some runs again

.

moko · Dec 16, 2007, 11:43 AM // 11:43

i dunno, mend condi, mend touch and rof are healing good for me.

Chase the Sky · Dec 18, 2007, 12:22 AM // 00:22

I was a ZB fan till I ran WoH. Now I am a WoH fan. My bar looks pretty odd with 5 prots and 1 elite heal though.

subNinja · Dec 20, 2007, 10:25 PM // 22:25

Klat you hussy.

ZB + Glyph of lesser = energy forever

...but these days you can't really get away with /E in TA.

yesitsrob · Dec 21, 2007, 02:33 PM // 14:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

I go WoH over ZB all the time.

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Dominator1370 · Dec 21, 2007, 07:43 PM // 19:43

I've never actually ran a ZB bar, I didn't really start monking until after the big WoH buff, but here's my issue:

Now, I dont have my WoH diverted/dshotted/etc terribly often. I know it's my only big "red bars go up" skill, so I try to make sure it stays active. However, I've certainly noticed from the times that it has happened and the times that I've seen it happen to other monks (not to mention the fact that it's pretty obvious just by looking at a WoH bar) that if WoH gets disabled, you're probably going to be in pretty big trouble. Preprot helps, but a lot of teams are getting better at removing/ripping through preprot, and I don't care how good your preproting is, RoF isn't going to keep your team up indefinitely.

Now, I saw someone post that running a ZB bar with Gift is a bad idea. It seems to me (despite my lack of hands-on experience with it) that ZB would suffer from similar problems in terms of healing with it disabled. Why is Gift such a bad idea? Obviously, you wouldn't run Gift on a WoH bar, but Gift, in my head at least, actually seems like a decent reason to run ZB. You should use ZB instead, but sometimes you can't. It seems to me like Gift + ZB could help with a serious problem faced by monks of all elites. Even if your Guardian gets PBlocked, you can still use it. So, why wouldn't you run it?

TheOneMephisto · Dec 22, 2007, 04:05 AM // 04:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominator1370

I've never actually ran a ZB bar, I didn't really start monking until after the big WoH buff, but here's my issue:

Now, I dont have my WoH diverted/dshotted/etc terribly often. I know it's my only big "red bars go up" skill, so I try to make sure it stays active. However, I've certainly noticed from the times that it has happened and the times that I've seen it happen to other monks (not to mention the fact that it's pretty obvious just by looking at a WoH bar) that if WoH gets disabled, you're probably going to be in pretty big trouble. Preprot helps, but a lot of teams are getting better at removing/ripping through preprot, and I don't care how good your preproting is, RoF isn't going to keep your team up indefinitely.

Now, I saw someone post that running a ZB bar with Gift is a bad idea. It seems to me (despite my lack of hands-on experience with it) that ZB would suffer from similar problems in terms of healing with it disabled. Why is Gift such a bad idea? Obviously, you wouldn't run Gift on a WoH bar, but Gift, in my head at least, actually seems like a decent reason to run ZB. You should use ZB instead, but sometimes you can't. It seems to me like Gift + ZB could help with a serious problem faced by monks of all elites. Even if your Guardian gets PBlocked, you can still use it. So, why wouldn't you run it?

Most people run dismiss, which gives them an emergency heal in situations that lets them keep bars moving until things stabilize.

And the thing about gift is that it isn't that bad, but most people would really rather have another prot or a self-defense/energy management skill in that spot. When you're slotting a skill just for some special circumstances when another skill (dismiss) can often adequately fill those in emergencies, on crowded monk bars most people just would rather not spend the skill slot and attribute investment.

Avatar of Lnt · Jan 02, 2008, 08:35 AM // 08:35

I was pretty big on ZB till one day I decided to run after the buff WoH, and I was amazing how more efficient my bar was seeing WoH was pretty much all I needed and I could fit more offhand skills. That being said once WoH drops(D-Shot, Sig of Humil etc), monks have a hard time doing much else then spamming RoF(for straight heals), and almost helplessly watching an ally slowly drop.

It really depends on what build you're running (your other allies) and what you're up against.

On a really off note, that's what makes GuildWars great, two really debatable skills where there's not a real right answer. Glimmer, well that's another topic (which in my opinion, is basically RoF, but wasting your elite and spreading your atts further.)

Adiemus · Jan 02, 2008, 05:29 PM // 17:29

WoH. It simply heals more for less energy. When distraction rates are considered, you'll see what I mean.

steel singer · Jan 03, 2008, 02:49 PM // 14:49

I still like to run ZB.. Really because it makes you have 7 seconds guardian

Or just have more points to put in stances..

And it doesn't heal for much more.. ZB costs 3 energy for 170 health at 14 prot.. WoH at 14 healing costs 5 energy for 216 health.. But I don't think a WoH'er actually runs 14 healing..
So it's only very little diffrent..

CR3AT0R · Jan 03, 2008, 07:22 PM // 19:22

WoH wins ZB doesnt

That is all.